ri VIRGINIA: IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE CITY OF RICUMOND John Marshall Courts Building ------------------------------------------------------ JOYCE T. DOWNS, Plaintiff V. Case No. LB-2065-1 CSX TRANSPORTATION, INC., Defendant ------------------------------------------------------ DEPOSITION OF CHARLES R. GLASER July 7, 1997 Richmond, Virginia Reported by: Julie W. Davis REPORNNO, INC. P.O. Box 8260 Richmond, VA 23226 Phone: (MM) 282-0432 FAX: (804) 285-9520 00 COPY 4 Discovery deposition on oral examination of 5 Charles R. Glaser, by and before Julie W. Davis, a 6 notary public in and for the Conunonwealth of Virginia -7 at large, pursuant to Rule 4:1 of the Rules of the 8 Supreme Court of Virginia, and by Notice to Take 9 Depositions lodged with the other papers in this 10 action, co=encing at 4:00 p.m., July 7, 1997, at the 11 law offices of Mays & Valentine, 1111 E. Main Street, 12 Richmond, Virginia. 13 14 15 Appearances: 16 JOHN M. COOPER, ESQUIRE, WILSON, HAJEK & SHAPIRO 17 attorney, of counsel for the plaintiff le GREGORY F. HOLLAND, ESQUIRE, MAYS & VALENTINE 19 attorney, of counsel for the defendant 20 Also present: Dennis A. Wilt, CSX Senior 21 Claims Representative 2 3 CHARLES R. GLASER 2 was sworn and testified as follows: 3 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. HOLLAND: 6 Q Mr. Glaser, would you state your full name 7 for me, please? 8 A Charles R. Glaser. 9 Q What is your address, Mr. Glaser? 10 A 84 Glass Cove, two words. 11 Q 84 what? 12 A Glass Cove, G-L-A-S-S, Cove. Ruther Glen, 13 Virginia, R-U-T-H-E-R, G-L-E-N, 22S46. 14 Q Is that in Caroline County? 15 A Yes, it is. 16 Q What is your date of birth, sir? 1'7 A 11-1-50. 18 Q You are employed with CSX Transportation? 19 A Yes, I am. 20 Q What is your position with the railroad? 21 A Locomotive engineer. 22 Q When did you first become a railroader? '-?3 A July 19th, I believe, 1978. 24 Q Starting with your first signing on with DAVIS REPORTLNG, 1NC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 4 1 the railroad, would you take me briefly through your 2 railroad career, please, sir? 3 A I hired out in Detroit, Michigan, as a 4 brakeman with then the C&O, Marquette Seniority 5 District. November of 1978, I went into the engineers' 6 training program with the C&O. 7 Q What did you first hire on as? 8 A A brakeman. And was promoted to locomotive 9 engineer in February of 1980, and was furloughed from 10 February until November of 1980. At that time I 11 transferred from Michigan to Virginia with the C&O 12 proper, anci been employed here ever since as a 13 locomotive engineer. 14 Q You moved to Richmond in 1980? is A Yes. 16 Q Where did you work when you first came to 17 Richmond? 18 A Where? 19 Q Yes, sir. 2C A Right here in Richmond, predominantly out @l at Fulton Yard. I did spend, I take -- I did spend a 22 brief time at Gladstone, Virginia, worked as a hostler 23 there for three months, as I incurred enough seniority 24 to work the hostler job here in Richmond. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 5 Q How long have you known Boyce Downs? A I made one trip with him years ago. I was 3 a fireman back in Detroit on the runs to Wolbridge. He 4 caught the job one time as an extra engineer, that's 5 the first time I met him. Really didn't know Boyce or 6 really get to meet him untii we came down here to 7 Virginia, that would have been 1980. So I've known 8 Boyce basically since 1980. 9 Q Did you come down from Detroit at the same 10 time? 11 A No, I came down in either October or I 12 think I said November, October or November. I think 13 Boyce came down sometime during the summer, May or 14 June, July. I am not sure. 15 Q Of 1980? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you know him to socialize with him when 18 you lived in Detroit? 19 A No. 20 Q You think you had just made that one run 21 with him -- 22 A Yeah. 23 Q -- as a fireman in Detroit? @@4 A Once you meet him, you kind of don't forget DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Claser - Direct - Holiand 6 I him. 2 Q Why do you say that? 3 A Just that one trip with him, I heard other 4 railroaders just talk about him and various other 5 people. He is one of the guys that I met. I just 6 remembered who he was. 7 Q What was so unforgettable about him that 8 makes you remember him? 9 A He is just -- he's kind of a big guy. 10 Q Since 198O, have you socialized with him? 11 A Yes. 12 Q On a frequent basis? 13 A Graduated over the years, through work we 14 became friends on the job and subsequently friends also is off the job. 16 Q Is that a yes to my question that you 17 socialized with him on a frequent basis? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Have the two of you worked together on any 20 jobs here in Richmond since 1980? A We may have. Many years ago when we had 22 the hostler assignment in Fulton Yard, they used to --)3 have two hostlers on per shift. Possibly, yes, we did 24 work together. I think possibly since 1984, I don't DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 7 1 believe Boyce and I ever worked on the same assignment, 2 basically as engineer, engineer. 3 Q Would you characterize him as a good 4 friend? 5 A Yes, I would. 6 Q How often do the two of you get together 7 now? 8 A Once a week, once every other week. 9 Q What do you do when you get together once a 10 week or once every other week now? 11 A Usually go to each other's house maybe. We 12 have gone out to dinner several times. 13 Q With or without wives? 14 A Mostly with wives. Sometimes I take a ride is over to his place. If his wife is home, she is; if she 16 is not, she is not. 17 Q Mr. Downs' injury was back in July of 1996; 18 is that right, sir? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know how soon after his injury that 21 he started driving a car again? 22 A No, I don't. L'3 Q Is he driving a car now? 24 A Yes. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 8 Q And he will come over to your house from 2 time to time? 3 A He hasn't been over to my house by himself 4 since the accident. When they come, they come, him and 5 Mary, his wife. 6 Q Have you played cards with him since the -7 accident? 8 A We played cards last Saturday, I believe, 9 at Leon's house. I think that's the only time since 10 the accident we have actually sat down and played 11 cards. 12 Q What do you play when you play cards, 13 poker? 14 A Well, we used to like to play three-hand 15 pinochle, poker, you name it, with wives or with 16 friends, just depending. 17 Q Now, you said that you'd gotten together 18 with him to go out to eat since his accident and been 19 to each other's houses since the accident, what else 20 have you done with him socially since the accident? 21 A That's about it. Met him for lunch a 22 couple of times, just me and him. Dinner with the -@13 wives, visiting each other's houses on occasion. 24 Q How long have you been getting together DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 9 I with him once every week or once every two weeks, since 2 the accident? 3 A I use that as a ballpark figure. After the 4 accident probably didn't see him but once, maybe twice 5 in the first month and a haif or so. And just 6 depending on his therapy, his schedule, just how he is 7 feeling. And, of course, depending on my work 5cheduie 8 and how I am working, I use once or twice a week as a 9 ballpark figure. 10 Q What did you do with him socially before 11 his accident? 12 A Probably the same things, including we'd 13 get together bowling from time to time, and we did play 14 a lot of golf together. 15 Q How often would you play golf with 16 Mr. Downs prior to the accident? 17 A That would vary, too. Sometimes we play 18 once, twice a week. Sometimes we play -- we went 19 together to Myrtle Beach, for four days we played 20 golf. Boyce met me back in Michigan twice to play in 21 outings back there. Just again, it was really @12 depending on our work scheduies. 23 Q What do you normally shoot? 24 A About 92, let's say I am a boogie golfer. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Hoiland 10 1 Q What about Mr. Downs, what did he usually shoot? 3 A A little higher than 92. 4 Q About a hundred? 5 A 96, 98. 6 Q Where would you play? 7 A Particular courses? 8 Q (Nods head). 9 A I think we played just about every golf 10 course around, Winwood, Crossings, the Hollows, Mill 11 Quarter, River's Bend. 12 Q Generally all of the public courses in 13 Richmond? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Have you played golf with him since the 16 accident? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know if he has tried playing golf 19 since the accident? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q You have told me about getting together 22 with him socially, does Mr. Downs attend union meetings 23 now? 24 A I think since the accident he has been to DAVIS REPORTTNG, TNC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 11 1 two meetings, I beiieve. 2 Q Did you help Mr. Downs when he built his 3 house? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q What did you do? 6 A What did I do? 7 Q Yeah. 6 A From framing, helped him a little bit with 9 framing and certainly helped, did the bulk of the work 10 on the roof. 11 Q Are you a contractor on the side? 12 A No, I am a learn-as-you-go. 13 Q Who provided you instructions as far as the 14 framing and the roof work went? is A Basically Donnie Thurston basically showed 16 you how to layout, how to frame, how to roof. 17 Q What about Mr. Downs, did he know anything 18 about framing or roofing? 19 A Just what we learned building Leon 20 Stockwell's house. 21 Q Prior to the accident did you ever hunt 22 with Mr. Downs? 23 A No. 24 Q Fish with him? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 12 1 A One time we did go with another railroad 2 friend to Reedville on the bay fishing. That's the 3 only time I have been fishing with Boyce. 4 Q Are you Mr. Downs' union representative? 5 A Yes, I am. 6 Q You are the local chairman of the RF&P side 7 of the 3LE here in Richmond? 8 Local chairman, BLE, Division 26, that's 9 C&O proper. 10 Q 1 am sorry, C&O. Local number what? 11 A 26. 12 Q Is Mr. I)owns active in the union now? 13 A Attending meetings like I told you. I 14 mean, he is a merrber, let's put it that way. I don't is know what you define as active. 16 Q Is he still paying his dues? 17 A Yes, I believe he does. Being carried 18 right now as a sick-off-injured member. 19 Q Has Mr. Downs ever held any position in the @O union? 1 21 A I believe currently he is our @2 vice-president. 23 Q What duties does vice-president have? 24 A Basically little. In the absence of the DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 13 1 president, the vice-president has to be there and he 2 presides at the meeting. 3 Q Has Mr. Downs presided at any meetings 4 since his accident? 5 A He may have at one of the two meetings I 6 think that he attended. I think our president was '7 absent. 8 Q What are your dutie3 as local chairman? 9 A My duties as local chairman are to protect 10 our agreements, our contracts. 11 Q Is that all? 12 A That's kind of like all encompassing, 13 handle claims, represent mernbers in disciplinary 14 hearings, correspond with general co=ittee, interpret 15 or ask for interpretation of contracts. 16 Q Do you give advice to employees when they 17 sustain personal injuries at work? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q Did you give Mr. Downs any advice following 20 his injury relating to his personal injury claim? 21 A Boyce had asked me, he was still in the @@2 hospital, I think, three or four days after the injury, 23 what could he do. I told him, you can work with the 24 carrier or you can seek a FELA attorney. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 14 1 Q A what attorney, FELA attorney? 2 A FELA. 3 Q Did you suggest to him what he should do? 4 A No, I didn't. s Q Did you take any pictures of Mr. Downs 6 while he was in the hospital? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q At whose request? 9 A At his wifels. 10 Q And do you remember how soon after his 11 accident that was? 12 A The day of or the day after. 13 Q What about the area where his injury 14 occurred, did you take any photographs there? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 Q What did you do with those photographs? 1-7 A I have got them at home. 18 Q Have you provided anyone with the 19 negatives? 20 A They were Polaroid pictures. 21 Q Have you provided anyone with the pictures 1)2 that you took? 1 23 A I took them for the purpose of showing 24 Boyce, and he was reluctant -- this was several weeks DAVIS REPORTTNG, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 15 1 later. He was reluctant. He didn't know if he wanted 2 to see them or not. Yes, T did finally show them. I 3 took the pictures to at least one of our division 4 meetings to show any mernber who cared to take a look at 5 them. 6 Q Why? 7 A Why? 8 Q Yes, sir. 9 A Well, even in the yard where speeds are 10 much slower than they are on the main line, that 11 doesn't preclude terrible collisions. 12 Q Have you given copies of those pictures to 13 Mr. Downs' attorney? 14 A No, I haven't. 15 Q When did you take those pictures? 16 A Late afternoon July Sth. 17 Q Do you know how many pictures you have? 18 A Ten maybe, I am not sure. 19 Q Those are Polarcids? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Who was with you when you took them, if you 22 recall? 23 A I met the conductor Dan Latta at the old 24 car inspector's shop at Acca, Superintendent Miller, DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 16 1 Terminal Trainmaster Ward, and I believe Assistant 2 Superintendent Barry Hopper, I believe. It might have 3 been David Teeter. I am not sure right now. 4 Q Were you at Acca when the accident 5 occurred? 6 A No. 7 Q How did you find out about it? 8 A I worked on the same switching league that 9 Boyce had worked. I worked on the afternoon of July 10 4th from 3:00 to 11:00. The following morning I got 11 up, I was drinking coffee, watching the morning news, 12 and I saw a news spot about, just a mention, a picture 13 of I think one car sitting by itself somewhere in the 14 yard, and a mention of a train accident at Acca. And I 15 didn't think much of it. Little later on that 16 morning -- I knew Boyce was working that night on the 17 11:00 to 7:00 a.m. job, and I called his house that 18 morning just to talk to him, see if he knew what 19 happened, and I got no answer. And maybe 4S minutes 20 later, another engineer, Dave McKinney -- I don't know 21 if he was down there at the time or somebody called 22 him -- he called me and informed me that Boyce had been 23 injured early that morning and was at MCV. 24 Q The spot on the news that you saw, did that DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 17 1 mention that anyone had been injured? 2 A I think it did. May have been an injury. 3 I am not really sure. There definitely was a picture, 4 not a photograph, but a tape of a car sitting there and 5 talked about a collision in the yard. May or may not 6 have mentioned that somebody was injured. 7 Q When did you go to the hospital initially? 8 A Probably got there about 10:30 the morning 9 of July 5th. 10 Q Did you see Mr. Downs when you got to the 11 hospital? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Where did you go see him? 14 A He was in intensive care. 15 Q Do you remember what hospital? 16 A mcv. 17 Q Do you remember which building over there? 18 Was it the newer hospital or the old hospital? 19 A I am not sure. I am not real familiar with 20 MCV. I think it was the newer part, I am not sure. 21 Q Did you have any discussion with him? 22 R Just a little bit. I mean, he recognized 23 me. We talked a little bit, tried to joke with him, 24 that was about it. DAVLS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 18 I Q Who else was there? 2 A His wife Mary was there. Leon was there. 3 Terminal Trainmaster Ward was there. I think that's 4 about it. I am not sure. 5 Q You took your camera with you into the 6 hospitai? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you say that you took pictures that day 9 or the next day? 10 A Later on that afternoon. 11 Q All right. And did you have to go back 12 home and get your camera? 13 A I had a camera with me. 14 Q In your car? 15 A In my truck, yes. 16 Q Did you go back to the hospital to visit 17 Mr. Downs while he was in there? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you go back every day to see him? 20 A As much as I couid, yes. 21 Q Do you think that was every day? 22 A No, not every day. 23 Q Do you know how long he was in the 24 hospital? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 19 1 A No, not exactly, two to three weeks, maybe. 2 Q Did you bring him home from the hospital? 3 A No. 4 Q How soon after he got home from the 5 hospitai did you go visit him? 6 A Probably within a couple of days. -7 Q Since his injury, do you think that you 8 have seen him once a week? 9 A on average, I would say, yeah, once a 10 week -- that's hard to say. Sometimes -- probably 11 haven't seen him in two weeks now. 12 Q Have you been on any trips with Mr. Downs 13 since his injury? 14 A No. 15 Q Have you had any discussions with Mr. Downs 16 since his release from the hospital about what he 1'7 injured in the accident? 18 A About what he injured? 19 Q Yes, sir. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Tell me about those discussions and tell me 22 when they occurred. 23 A Numerous discussions certainly while he was 24 in the hospital; his arms or his arm, his rib, his eye, DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 20 1 his chest, his back. 2 Q When was the last time you had a discussion 3 with him about what he hurt? 4 A About what he hurt? 5 Q Yes. 6 MR. COOPER: Body parts you mean, Counsel? 7 MR. HOLLAND: Yes. 8 A The last conversation with him about what 9 he hurt would have been Saturday, this past Saturday. 10 He was having chest pains. He was scheduled to see a 11 cardiologist last Thursday. I called him Saturday to 12 see what was going on with his chest pains. He told me 13 that he never did have the meeting. It was an 14 emergency, and his cardiologist wasn't available. We 15 have talked off and on 5ince the accident about his 16 injuries, how he is doing, what is his prognosis, 17 anything you would ask a friend of yours who had been 18 injured, I guess. 19 20 BY MR. HOLLAND: 21 Q Tell me this: Has he told you what he 22 plans to do about returning to work? 23 A No, not really. I @ust -- we converse 24 about it, Do you think you are going to get back to DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 21 1 work. 2 Q And what has he said in response to that? 3 A He basically said he doesn't know. He 4 doesn't think at this time he can return to work. 5 Q And when I say return to work, I mean 6 returning to work as a locomotive engineer? -7 A Right. 8 Q Is that what your discussions have been 9 with him about, returning to work as a locomotive 10 engineer? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Have you voiced your opinion to him as to 13 whether you think he can return to work? 14 A No. 15 Q Has he told you what the doctors have told 16 him about returning to work? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know if he has tried to find other 19 employment? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q When was the last time you had any 22 discussion with him about whether he could return to 23 work as a locomotive engineer? 24 A I don't know. Several weeks ago, three DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Hoiland 22 I weeks, four weeks. 2 Q And at that time he told you that he didn't 3 know if he would be able to return to work? 4 A I don't recall him saying whether he would 5 or wouldn't, just exactly what would happen with him. 6 Q Pardon? 7 A I don't recall him saying whether he would 8 or wouldn't, or what his future plans were or what he 9 thought. 10 Q Prior to Mr. Downs' accident in July of 11 1996, were you aware of any physical problems that he 12 had? 13 MR. COOPER: At any time, Counsel, or at 14 that i=ediate moment? 15 MR. HOLLAND: No. 16 17 BY MR. HOLLAND: 18 Q Just prior to the accident, were you aware 19 of any physical problems? 20 A Yes, he had some back problems. 21 Q Have you-all had discussions about his back 22 problems? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Tell me when you had those discussions with DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 23 1 him and what was 3aid. 2 A Discussions after we became friends, we 3 talked about what he used to do. He had several prior 4 back operations. Just exactly what they are, I don't 5 know. He's got some scar tissue on his back, that's 6 for sure. That's obvious when you see him without a 7 shirt. 8 Q What part of his back are you talking 9 about? 10 A Right from the crack of the butt up, is 11 definitely scar tissue there. 12 Q Is that just one conversation that you had 13 with him about his back problems? 14 A Oh, yes. I mean, conversations over the 15 years. 16 Q What would bring up these discussions about 17 his back probiem? 18 MR. COOPER: Again, I object unless you are 19 going to be able to pinpoint it as to time. I 20 think that's an unfair question. It is lumping a 21 bunch of stuff together. At the time he had the @-2 surgery, at the time when he was recovered from 23 the surgery, at the time after he had the surgery? 24 DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 24 1 BY MR. HOLLAND: 2 Q If you can give me a time frame, please 3 give it to me. 4 A I really don't have, one honest. Over the 5 years since I've known him, the conversation has come 6 up. He ha5 had several back operations. When he had '7 them and what they did, I can't say for sure. I do 8 know that since I have known him, met him in Virginia, 9 I know he has been in the hospital one time for a back 10 operation. 11 Q After he had that back operation, did you 12 ever have any conversation with him about how his back 13 was getting along? 14 A Probably, but exactly when and what was 15 discussed, how it came up, I really don't know. 16 Q Do you recail what he said about how his 17 back was getting along following that back surgery? 18 A From time to time he complained about being 19 sore. 20 Q And that's as specific as you can tell me 21 about that? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Do you know if he was having any lower back 24 difficuities in the month before his accident in 1996? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 25 1 A I don't think he was. I am not sure. 2 Q You don't know one way or the other? 3 A All I know is that I think less than a week 4 before the accident we played golf together. 5 Q You don't know if he's tried to play golf 6 since the accident? -7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Pardon? 9 A I do not, no. 10 Q Since the accident have you asked him to 11 go play golf with you? 12 A No, I haven't. 13 Q Has he ever told you that he can't play 14 golf? is A He has told me he wants to play golf again. 16 Q When did he tell you that? 17 A He told me that numerous times since the 18 accident. He just hopes he recovers well enough to be 19 able to play golf again. 20 MR. COOPER: Let's go off the record. 11 (Discussion was held off the record.) -@' 2 "3 BY MR. HOLLAND: 24 Q Do you know the names of any of Mr. Downs' DAVTS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 26 1 doctors? 2 A No, I don't. Dr. Moore at Laburnum 3 medical, I know. That was probably his regular 4 physician. 5 Q Are you a patient of Dr. Moorels? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q Mr. Glaser, I have been told by Mr. Downs' 8 attorney that you are going to testify as an expert 9 witness and that you are expected to offer testimony as 10 to the duties required to be performed by a locomotive 11 engineer and the physical forces that are exerted and 12 required to be exerted by a locomotive engineer. Were 13 you aware of the fact that you had been designated as 14 an expert witness in this case? 15 A Not until I got the letter from Mr. Wilson. 16 Q Is that a letter that's dated May 30, 1997? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is that your notebook thing there or 19 Mr. Stockwell's? 20 A That's mine. 21 Q Is that the same one that Mr. Stockwell had '@2 in here? @@3 A Same bag, too. We got these at the @4 convention last year. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - 14olland 27 1 Q It is not the same notebook. They are just 2 similar notebooks, right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q When Mr. Downs told you that he had gotten 5 an attorney to represent him, did you tell Mr. Downs 6 that you would do what you could to help him? 7 A I don't recall it to that effect that I 8 would do whatever I had to do. What needed to be done 9 as his local chairman, as his union representative, 10 sure. 11 Q Did you suggest to him how you might be of 12 some help? 13 A I told him as a friend and as a union 14 representative, yes, I would help him. 15 Q Well, I guess what T am asking you is: Did 16 you tell him how, in what way you could be helpful to 17 him? 18 A No, I wasn't sure just what, if anything, I 19 could do for him. 20 Q Now, prior to your deposition or coming 11 here for your deposition, what did you do to prepare 22 for it, Mr. Glaser? A Just read the two letters that were sent to 14 me on the tasks and duties of locomotive engineer, just DAVIS REPORTTNG, INC. Glaser - Direct - Hoiland 28 I reviewed them. 2 Q You said letters, do you mean -- 3 A These two letters. 4 MR. COOPER: We stipulate they are Exhibits 5 1 and 3 for the Stockwell deposition. 6 A That's what was mailed to me for review. 7 These, along with the May 30th ietter. 8 9 BY MR. HOLLAND: 10 Q We have marked them as exhibits in 11 Mr. Stockwell's deposition. Exhibit 1, which at the 12 top it says, Job Title, Locomotive Engineer; and 13 Exhibit 3, which I think is six pages, starts with page 14 five and ends with page ten. Do you have those in 15 front of you -- 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q -- Mr. Glaser? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did Mr. Wilson provide those to you? -10 A Yes, he did. 11 Q Do you know who authored exhibits, 22 Stockwell Exhibits 1 and 3? @'3 A No, I don't. 24 Q Prior to your receiving those from DAVIS REPORTING, INC. 1 Glaser - Direct - Holland 29 1 Mr. Wilson, had you seen them before? A No, I hadn't. 3 Q Prior to your deposition tc>day, did you 4 meet with Mr. Downs' attorney? 5 A I met with Eddie -- no, I haven't met with 6 Eddie Wilson. He has telephoned me. That is about the -7 extent. 8 Q How long have you known Mr. Wilson? 9 A T think we had ciinner a couple of years 10 ago. Ibelieve that was with Leon -- I am not even 11 sure that was Eddie Wilson. I have met him. I don't 12 know him personaily. I have met him several times at 13 BLE functions, such as southeastern meetings. That's 14 about it. is Q At any time have you inquired of Mr. Downs' 16 attorney, whether it be Mr. Cooper or Mr. Wilson or 17 anyone else in Mr. Wilson's office, as to where 18 Stockwell Exhibits 1 and 3 came from? 19 A No. 20 Q I am going to be asking you 5ome questions 21 about the physical demands of a locomotive engineer, 22 and I will ask you, Mr. Glaser, do you feel like you @-3 need to refer to Stockweil Exhibits 1 and 3 to answer 24 those questions? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 30 1 A I have to be asked the question first. I 2 will try and answer, you know. If I want to, to refer 3 to what these things say. 4 Q Have you made any notes on either one of 5 your copies of the exhibits? 6 A Yes, I have. 7 Q May I see those, please? 8 A Sure. 9 Q Have you and Mr. Stockwell had any 10 discussions about Stockwell E.,.zhibits 1 and 3? 11 A Yes, we have. 12 Q Have you sat down and reviewed them 13 together? 14 A This morning. is Q Did you exchange ideas about them? 16 A Not really. Basically I agree with both, 17 That's written on those two e,@hibits. They are 18 probably not as definitive as to duties. Some things 19 aren't mentioned in there. There is a lot of twisting 20 on the job, things like that, carrying grips, things 21 like that that are part of locomotive engineering -@12 duties. 23 Q Did you and Mr. Stockwell go through this 24 line-by-line and say, I agree with this, I don't agree DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 31 1 with that? 2 A Yes, what do you think, that's about 3 correct, something to that effect. 4 Q And did you do that with Mr. Cooper this 5 morning? 6 A Leon and I got here first and we started 7 reviewing on our own, and then Mr. Cooper came in. 8 Q And he reviewed both exhibits with you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you that he agreeci or 11 disagree with either one of the exhibits? 12 A No, most of ttie review -- according to 13 Mr. Cooper, he knows very littie about actual 14 locomotive duties. Most of the review I think with him 15 was mostly us trying to educate him, explain what is in 16 writing, what it actually rneans and what it is. 17 Q Do you currently work a yard job or road 18 job? 19 A Predominantly I work in the yard. Q How long have you predominantly worked in 21 the yard? 22 A I work in the yard as often as I can. '@3 Probably for the last five or six years, but, yes, I @@4 have, I have on occasion worked on the road. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 32 1 Q Do you have enough seniority so you can 2 choose whether you want to work in the yard or on the 3 road? 4 R Yes. 5 Q How much seniority do you have? 6 A 19 years. 7 Q Why do you prefer yard jobs? 8 A Basically for the time, the off time, the 9 regular hours, and that has a lot to do with being a 10 iocal chairman. 11 Q What do you mean that has to do with being 12 a iocal chairman? 13 A A lot of my off time is consumed in my 14 duties as local chairman. Working in the yard affords is me more regular hours. 16 Q Do you mark off from time to time because 17 you have duties as local chairman? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q How much time during a typical month do you 20 mark off because of your duties as local chairman? 21 A The duties as local chairman, on average, @@2 maybe two or three days a month. That's on an average, 23 and it varies. T may be off four or five days at a 24 time, and then again T may not take off for two to DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 33 1 three weeks at a time. 2 Q If you take off for four or five days is 3 that when you go to a convention or some kind of 4 meeting? 5 A They can vary. That can be Boards of 6 Inquiry, try to schedule them as close as possible. -7 Can vary on the claim handlinq, can vary on contract 8 interpretations. 9 Q Do you work eight-hour shifts when you work 10 the yard? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you ever get early quit5 in the yard? 13 A Sometimes, on occasion, yes. 14 Q You don't have to be there the full eight 15 hours? 16 A Not necessarily. If they figure you got 17 the work done that needs to be done, they let you go 18 home early. 19 Q When you say they, you talking about the 20 yardmaster or trainmaster? 11 A Supervisors, both. 22 MR. COOPER: Can I take a break. 23 (Recess.) 4 DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 34 1 BY MR. HOLLAND: 2 Q Mr. Glaser, have you ever been 3 vice-president or president of the local, your local 4 BLE? 5 A Our division, no, I've never been president 6 or vice-president. -7 Q Are either one of those positions 8 compensated positions? 9 A No, they are not. 10 Q Are they, I guess -- are either one of them 11 full-time positions? 12 A You are elected full time. 13 Q You are elected fuii time and you aren't 14 paid anything; is that what you are saying? 15 A Exactly. 16 Q You mentioned that Mr. Downs had had back 17 surgery, anci I don't know if you mentioned the year or 18 not, did you? 19 A Since I have known him, I think, 1991, 20 1992. 192, I think. @l Q How did he get along following that 22 surgery? 23 A Got along well as far as I could tell. @@4 Q Was there anything that he couidn't do DAVTS REPORTTNG, INC. Glaser - L)irect - Holland 35 I after that surgery that you are aware of that he could 2 cio before the surgery? 3 A Not that I am really aware. 4 Q Pardon? 5 A Nothing I am aware of. 6 Q Did it slow his qolf game down any? 7 A No, not really. 8 Q I am going to be asking you some questions 9 about the physical demands of a locomotive engineer, 10 and for these questions I appreciate if you didn't 11 refer to those materials that were provided to you by 12 Mr. Wilson. 13 A Okay, that's fine. 14 MR. COOPER: I make the same objection I is did previously, without restating it, and I'll 16 make it a continuing objection if that's also 17 okay? 18 MR. HOLLAND: Okay. 19 @O BY MR. HOLLAND: Q Mr. Glaser, let's start with the road 22 engineer. Can you tell me what the physical demands of 23 a road engineer are? 24 A Physical demands of a road engineer. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 36 I Physically, you have to have good ears, good eyes, good 2 concentration, mental faculties. Physically, walking, 3 clirnbing, you crouch, you stoop, you lift, you help 4 align knuckles, drawheads from time to time, throw 5 switches, sit, reach, twist, turn. Kind of hard to 6 describe. I mean, anything that physically you would 7 do on or about machinery such as a locomotive, that 8 encompasses a lot. 9 Q Well, tell me what involves climbing on a 10 locomotive. 11 A Up and down steps. 12 Q You are talking about the steps on a 13 locomotive? 14 A Right. 15 Q And how many steps are there on a 16 locomotive? 17 A Anywhere from three to five depending on 18 the model. 19 Q Do all of those steps have a handrail? @O A Yes, they do. 1 21 Q When you are a road engineer, how often do 22 you have to go up and down those steps? 23 A Certainly when you board the engine for the 24 first time, certainly when you leave the engine at the DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 37 I final terminal, and as many times in between as you may 2 be required. 3 Q You can't tell me an average number of 4 times that you might have to go up and down when you 5 are a road engineer? 6 A Maybe a half dozen times. Again, that 7 varies. You may do a lot of climbing, if you have to 8 set up or set off, pick up engines, align along the 9 road, you may climb up several engines, several times. 10 Q It all depends on what kind of job you are 11 doing; is that right? 12 A Yeah, that's one way to describe it. It's 13 what you are required to do or instructed to do. 14 Q Has Mr. Downs ever told you that he doesn't 15 think he can get up and down on a railroad locomotive? 16 A No, I don't think he ever told me that. 17 Q Has Mr. Downs ever told you what he thinks 18 he wouid have probiems with as far as the duties of a 19 railroad locomotive engineer go? 20 A T believe he has told me that he probably -1 would have a lot of problems on the job because of loss 1 22 of arm strength in his left arm, couldn't necessitate -'3 with the climbing, grabbing grab arms, clirrlbing up and 24 easing him3elf up and back down, I assume. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 38 1 Q I don't want you to assume. 2 A That's part of climbing up and clinibing 3 down, you have to have enough arm strength. 4 Q I want you to tell me what he told you. s A Go back to your original question. 6 Q I asked you if Mr. Downs ever told you that 7 he would have difficulty mounting a locomotive engine? 8 You said, no, he didn't teil you that. 9 A Right. 10 Q And I asked you if Mr. Downs ever shared 11 with you any problems that he would have if he went 12 back to being a locomotive engineer. 13 A Yes, he said he would have problems with 14 his arm strength, strength of his arms. 15 Q Any other problems that he told you he 16 thought he would have? 1'7 A He may have told me that sitting for 18 extended periods of time would be difficult. 19 Q When you say may, you are not sure about 10 that? A No. 4-2 MR. COOPER: Objection. You asked the man 23 what did the plaintiff, Boyce Downs, tell you he 24 thought he might have trouble with or would have DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 39 1 trouble. He answered your question. He is 2 repeating to you what Boyce said. He is answering 3 your question. What did Boyce say he might have 4 trouble with, he is answering that. Why did you 5 say that is not a reasonable question. 6 MR. HOILAND: His answer was that he may 7 have said this or that, and so I am asking him 8 does that mean that you are not sure whether he 9 said that. 10 MR. COOPER: The man said that he may have 11 trouble doing X, Y and Z. I think the witness can 12 answer. My problem is you shouldn't be asking 13 questions about what his opinions are. That's 14 different than your question. is MR. HOLLAND: I am not asking him about 16 opinions. I am asking him about what Mr. Downs 17 has toid him. 18 MR. COOPER: Let's stick to that. 19 MR. HOLLAND: That's right. 20 @l BY MR. HOLLAND: 1 22 Q That's right, let's stick to that. 23 Tell me w@at Mr. Downs has told you. @'4 A He told me sitting with his back would be a DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Giaser - Direct - Holland 40 1 problem. He is concerned about his arm strength being 2 a problem, of actually doing the physical part of the 3 job of locomotive engineer. 4 Q When do you have to crouch or stoop? 5 A Crouching or stooping, any time you use the 6 toilet on an engine that's equipped with a toilet in 7 the nose part of the engine. Crouching, stooping any 8 time you need to inspect a locomotive, particularly 9 from the ground, brake rigging, wheels, traction 10 motors. 11 Q How often do you have to inspect a 12 iocomotive? 13 A Every day. 14 Q Is that in the yard and on the road? 15 A Yes, it is. 16 Q And each time you conduct an inspection of 1'7 a locomotive, you have to stoop clown or crawl 18 underneath of it? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that inciudes yard jobs and road jobs? A Yard and road. On the road any time you 22 are stopped for whatever you think is a reasonable @'3 amount of time that you are not going to delay a train 24 for a signal that becomes favorable to you, you are DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 41 I required to get on the qrounci and inspect a locomotive 2 under your charge. 3 Q Every time you come to a stop? 4 A If it will not delay your train, yes. 5 Dispatcher tells you you are going to stop, you are 6 going to meet two trains, you are going to be there for 7 an hour, yes, you are required to get on the ground and 8 do a physical inspection of the locomotive. 9 Q Can you teil me what rule says that? 10 A Not right off the top of my head. 11 Q Is that an operating rule? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 Q And you have to inspect your locomotive 14 even if you are not having any problems with it? is A Yes. 16 Q What about if you are in the yard? 17 A In the yard you are to inspect locomotives 18 whenever it is convenient. Certainly most engineers do 19 a waik-around inspection briefly when they take charge 20 of the iocomotive. When you get up on the cab and you check for the calendar day, Federal FRA calendar day 22 inspection, if that is not current, you must perform a -@'3 calendar day inspection, which required a much more 24 detailed inspection of the engine, from front to back, DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Hoiland 42 1 top to bottom. 2 Q Well, suppose it's had a calendar day 3 inspection, then what do you have to do? 4 A Then there is no requirement other than -- 5 yes, I am not sure it is an actual operating rule in 6 the yard. Most engineers will do a physical walk 7 around and at least check the conditions of the brakes 8 before they get on and start moving an engine. 9 Q That doesn't mean crawling up underneath 10 the engine? 11 A It rneans taking a look at it. If that 12 means you got to get close to it, you got to stoop down 13 and turn, and see various parts of the wheels and/or 14 the brakes, yeah. 15 Q Is that a mandatory rule or is that 16 something that the engineer might take upon himself to 17 do? 18 A I want to say it is. It would fall under 19 the same rule on the line or road. If you have the 20 opportunity to inspect the engine without delay, that's 21 what you got to do. That would include if they put you @'2 in the yard track for 15 minutes. You may go on duty, @@3 work for an hour, put you in the yard track for 15 24 rninutes. At the time you to get out of the way, we got DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 43 1 other jobs, stand by in the clear, that's when you 2 would get off of the engine and physically do an 3 inspection, even if the calendar day was current. 4 Q That means getting down and stooping and 5 squatting and checking everything out with that engine? 6 A It may. 7 Q What do you mean it by may? Does it 8 require that or does it not require that? 9 A It is required. If you are asking me 10 physically, it all depends on how you physically 11 inspect the locomotive as compared to me. I am going 12 to do -- I am going to bend. I am going to stoop. I 13 am going to look at every part of the wheels or the 14 brakes that I can see. is Q Every time you have a 15-minute break in 16 the yard, you get down and inspect your locomotive? 1'7 A Try to. 18 Q Does that mean that you do it, or you don't 19 do it? 20 MR. COOPER: Objection. I think you are 21 badgering the witness. @'2 MR. HOLLAND: He says that he tries to. I 23 don't know what he tries. 4 DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Boliand 44 1 BY MR. HOLLAND: 2 Q Tell me what you try to do. 3 A At least once a shift I will inspect the 4 locomotive, consistent with other responsibilities and 5 duties. If we are in the process of getting another 6 track or getting another switch list, my priorities 7 have to do with job briefing with my crew. They would 8 preclude me from cioing a locomotive inspection. 9 Q When you work a yard job, are there times 10 you have 1S minutes to kili? 11 A Usuaily. For ali intents and purposes, 12 when I take charge of a locomotive, that's the first 13 thing that T do. I put my grip on the ground and walk 14 around it and then get up on it and go to work. 15 Q I am asking you now, when you are a yard 16 engineer, will there be times during the day when you 1'7 will liave a 15-minute break? 18 MR. COOPFR: Asked anci answered. He 19 already said yes. no A Sure. 21 @12 BY MR. HOLLAND: 23 Q And how often would you have those brakes 24 during the day? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 45 1 A It can vary. 2 Q Sornetimes you can sit for an hour and not 3 move your engine; is that correct? 4 A Sure. And other times you may sit there 5 three and a half hours and constantly be on the move. 6 Q You told me about the number of times you 7 might have to get up and down off the engine when on 8 the road. What about in the yard? Can you tell me how 9 many times you would have to get up and down off the 10 engine in the yard? 11 A In the yard, probably even more often. I 12 say that because, yes, you do stop and start rnore 13 often. In the yard you are much more liable to use 14 different sets of locomotives. You may start out with 15 using one locomotive, you may end up an hour later, get 16 off of that one engine and go get on those two there. 17 We use them for a while to work with. It varies. 18 Q Again, you can't give me an average number 19 of times that you might have to get up and down on a -10 locomotive during the day as a yard engineer? 1 21 A Not really. I said six times on the road, 22 that's an estimate. That's as best I can describe it. '@3 Q Now, you mentioned something about @4 knuckles. Does a locomotive engineer ever have to move DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Giaser - Direct - Holland 46 1 knuckles? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Does a yard engineer have to move knuckles? 4 Yes, it may be necessary. 5 Q When would that be necessary? 6 A If you had a train separation close to the 7 engine -- doesn't matter where. if it is not, if it's 8 not accessible to a car inspector, readily accessible 9 or the crew is instructed to change a knuckle then, 10 yes, the engineer would have to at a very minimum get 11 the knuckle from wherever it was located, on either end 12 of the engine or in the engine room compartment at the 13 rear of the engine, and at least lift it and set it on 14 the ground. 15 Q When was the last time you had to lift a 16 knuckle and set it on the ground in the yard? 17 A In the yard? Oh, it's been a while, 18 several years, maybe. 19 Q When was the last time you had to lift and 20 set a knuckle down on the road? 21 A I haven't worked the road that often. it 22 is possibly more familiar and more often on the road 23 than it is in the yard. '@4 Q I am asking you when you had to do it? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Giaser - Direct - Hoiiand 47 1 A When I had to do it? Maybe five years ago. 2 I really don't know. 3 Q Is there anything that prevents a conductor 4 or a brakeman from helping an engineer move a knuckle 5 when they have to move it? 6 A No, if they are available. 7 Q What about participating in locomotive 8 inspections, do conductors or brakemen ever assist in 9 those operations? 10 A No. 11 Q You mentioned the throwing of switches. 12 Can you teil me how often a iocomotive engineer ha3 to 13 throw aswitch in the yard? 14 A The particular yard job I work, I would say is just about every day I throw switches. 16 Q Do you know what force is required to throw 17 a switch, what pound force? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q Have you ever hurt yourself throwing a 20 switch? 21 A No, I haven't. 22 Q Have you ever hurt yourself tying a hand --3 brake? 24 A No, I haven't. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 48 1 Q Can you explain for me how you tie off a 2 hand brake on a locomotive? 3 A A wheel brake would be, turn the wheel in a 4 clockwise direction until you feel the wheel getting 5 tight, then it is pretty much stand at the, it would be 6 a right angle to the wheel and grip with both hands and 7 pull rung by rung until you feel it is as tight as you 8 can get it without straining. The ratchet-type brake 9 is, it is a bend with the knees, grab the ratchet. 10 Keep lifting up and down with the legs until the 11 ratchet is tight. 12 Q Again, have you ever hurt yourself applying 13 or releasing a hand brake? 14 A No. 15 Q You mentioned twisting and turning, can you 16 give me instances of when you might have to twist and 17 turn as a engineer, whether it be on the road or the 18 yard? 19 A Especially in the yard. You sit in the 20 seat and you constantly look forward, you constantiy 11 have to twist and turn in the seat to look backwards. 22 You constantly make movements in both directions, 23 trying to keep an eye, as best you can, in both 24 directions, even regardless sometimes of the direction DAVIS REPORTTNG, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 49 1 you are going. 2 Q Anything else you can think of as far as 3 physical demands of an engineer, whether it be on the 4 yard or the road? 5 A Like I said, walking, carrying, you carry 6 grips, they are quite heavy. You may have to carry -7 them a distance. 8 Q You say grips, you mean a bag; is that 9 right? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q And what clo those bags have in them? 12 A They have many things that you are required 13 to carry on the job, rule books, bulletins, timetables, 14 equipment, such as flashlights, rain gear and personal 15 belongings you need to pack on road trips especially, 16 clothes, toiletries. 17 Q Do you have a particular shift that you 18 work at Acca? 19 A Generally I work afternoons, 3:00 to 11:00. 20 Q @nd what is the number of the job that you @l generally work? 22 A Y211. 23 Q Does that work in a particular area of the 24 yard? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 50 I A Generally the south end of the north yard. 2 Q When was the last time you worked a yard 3 job? 4 A Saturday before last. I've been on 5 vacation this past week. 6 Q Did you have to throw a switch the last -7 time you worked the yard job? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q How many? 10 A Two, I believe in front of the yard office. 11 Q You mentioned that you had to reach as a 12 locomotive engineer. Can you tell me what you have to 13 reach for? 14 You may have to reach the switches in front 15 of you on the control stand. You may have to reach for 16 switches behind you on the controi panel. You may have 17 to reach in the engine room to reset overspeed trips, 18 low oil governing buttons. On rare occasions from the 19 ground level, if you can do it at all, you may have to 10 reach to open a side panel on the side of the engines, 21 just below the engineer's window. '4'2 Q When you work a yard job, do you ever have 113 to couple engines? 24 A Yes. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland -51 1 Q Doe3 anyone assist you in that job? 2 A Generally we do have -- we did have 3 assignments for an engineer to work by himself. That 4 assignment certainly, you got to make your own 5 coupiing, which would have included aiign drawheads, 6 opening, straightening knuckles and/or drawheads. 7 Q That assignment is no longer just an 8 engineer's only assignment? 9 A They have added a conductor. But 10 contractually, the carrier certainly has the right to 11 establish anytime, anywhere they want assignments with 12 an engineer oniy. 13 Q When was the last time that was an engineer 14 only assignment? 15 A I think from 1992 to 1995 or maybe even 16 early 1996 there were four assignments at Acca Yarci 17 that were engineer only. 18 Q When you have a conductor, does the 19 conductor help you with coupling the locomotives? 1-0 A Yes. You may assist the conductor from 21 time to time in aligning. 22 Q In aligning switches? 23 A In aligning switches, certainly. In '@4 aligning drawheads and/or knuckles. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 52 1 Q Have you as a local chairman ever requested 2 the carrier to make any acco=odations for any 3 particular employees? 4 A Accommodations? 5 Q Yes. 6 A What do you mean by accommodations? 7 Q Accommodations to assist an employee in 8 performing his work. 9 A I am not sure I understand what your 10 question is. 11 Q Well, let me ask you this: Does your 12 contract prevent the carrier from making some 13 acco=odations so that the employee doesn't have to do 14 everything that's contained within a particular job is function? 16 MR. COOPER: Objection, because it is 17 speculative. Go ahead and answer. 18 A If you are meaning could they, do they have 19 two engineers and two conductors on every job by ,@O contract, certainly they could. If that would @l facilitate one engineer, one conductor not doing 1 '12 everything, certainly. 2 3 4 DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 53 I BY MR. HOLLAND: 2 Q No, I quess what I am asking you is: For 3 instance, could there be an acco=odation that an 4 engineer -- 5 A If you need help, is that what you are 6 saying? 7 Q Engineer might need help throwing a switch. 8 A Basically that's what the engineers and the 9 conductor and/or train crews do, we accommodate and 10 assist each other whenever necessary. 11 Q There is nothing to prevent you from 12 helping a conductor or brakeman if they need help; is 13 that true? 14 A Sure, absolutely. If he can't throw a is switch, and he thinks he might need a little more 16 effort, fine, I'll help him throw a switch. If I say I 17 need help connecting this multiple unit cable, and I 18 can't hold the top opening and slide the other mate 19 into the receptacle, I ask hirn to help me. @O Q Have there been times you had difficulty 21 doing that? 22 A Sure. 23 Q What about difficulty tying off a hand 24 brake on alocomotive? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland 54 1 A Not so much tying a hand brake. I have 2 assisted conductors in tryinq to release brakes. 3 Q Are these locomotive and brakes? 4 A Locomotive and/or brakes on cars. 5 MR. HOLLAND: Let me take a quick break, 6 speak with Mr. Wilt here. We will go from there. -7 (Recess.) 8 9 BY MR. HOLLAND: 10 Q Mr. Glaser, when was the last time you had 11 to aiign a drawhead? 12 A Last time I aligned a drawhead, again, a 13 month ago, maybe. 14 Q And how do you do that? is A To align, to assist -- what I did was 16 assist the brakeman. We both got on the same side of 17 the drawhead in the direction that we wanted to move it 18 and pushed away from us. 19 Q Do you have a strap that you usually use to 20 move those? 21 A They do have knuckle mates, if they are 22 available. TheY call them knuckle mates and/or straps. -@'3 I think predominantly in Acca they use the knuckle 24 mates. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Direct - Holland Ss I Q Why didn't you use that in this particular 2 situation? 3 A I am not sure. The location precluded a 4 lengthy walk or just what precluded -- I was asked for 5 assistance, so I gave it. 6 Q By the conductor? 7 A Either the conductor or brakeman, I think, 8 I am not sure. 9 Q At Acca can you call a carman to come over 10 and make that repair? 11 A I suppose they could. Whether one is 12 available, the length of time involved. For some 13 practicality that goes along with trying to work 14 efficiently, trying to expedite the jobs you are doing. 15 Q In the yard aligning a drawhead is that a 16 carman's function? 17 A You are asking me now if -- whose function 18 it is? 19 Q Yes. 10 A I can't really answer the question. It is @ll part of the trainman's duties, I know that. In the 22 yard, whose duties are whose, you are asking me 23 contractually, I don't know. But again, it really does 24 go back to what is practical and what can be done, who DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 56 1 can do it the best in the least amount of time. 2 MR. HOLLAND: That's all the questions I 3 have. Thank you. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. COOPER: 7 Q I have got a few questions for you just so 8 they can't ciaim any surprise when you testify at the 9 time of trial or whatever. 10 You did review at our request Exhibits 1 11 and 3, the documents in front of you? 12 MR. HOLLAND: Object to the leading. 13 A Yes, I did. 1 4 15 BY MR. COOPER: 16 Q And you went through and found those things 17 that you didn't agree with on there, if any. A-nd let 18 me direct your attention to a couple of them 19 specifically, and you tell me if there is any other 20 ones that I have missed. 21 MR. HOLLAND: Same objection. -@2 MR. COOPER: You can have a continuing one 23 to leading if that's your main objection. 24 MR. HOLLAND: All right. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 57 1 BY MR. COOPER: 2 Q Sir, with respect to Exhibit No. 1, which 3 is the one you are looking at, I know that you have 4 some disagreement about the double starring out in the 5 left-hand margin indicating that certain functions are 6 not essential. What is your disagreement with that? 7 A Just the term. 8 MR. HOLLAND: Let me make an objection. 9 Actually, I think this goes beyond leading, even 10 to the point of testimony. If I can have a ii continuing objection, fine. I won't make any 12 further objection. 13 MR. COOPER: That's fine. Go ahead. 14 A The term hostler was at one time a job 15 performed by either a fireman, promoted engineer, 16 demoted status. As I described earlier, the 17 independent engineer basically does hostler functions. 18 19 BY MR. HOLLAND: 10 Q And so you would ciisagree with the 21 statement, that is not essential to the job? @02 A Yeah, absolutely. 23 Q And I take it You would express that 24 disagreement also with respect to items, not only No. 4 DAVIS REPORTING, INC. , Giaser - Cross - Cooper se 1 that we were just talking about, hostler function, also 2 items No. 24 and 26 on the second page? 3 A Yes, that is a necessary part of the 4 locomotive engineer's job. 5 Q That being align track, which is when 6 necessary, and draining the water from the cooling 7 5ystem when required? 8 A Yes, it is. 9 Q With respect to the other document, which 10 was marked previously as Stockwell No. 3, I direct your 11 attention to page six. Was there some disagreement you 12 had with the description of sitting as listed there? 13 A Yes, there is. 14 Q And what was that? 15 A There is a iot of twisting and turning in 16 the seat, especially in yard operations. I tried to 17 describe earlier, you are constantly back and forth, 18 looking back and forth to the front and to the back of 19 the engine and twisted in awkward positions to say the -0 least. 21 Q How about slack action, does that come into @'2 play as far as sitting? 23 A Yes, it does. There is a, there is L,4 considerable -- in yard switclaing there is considerable DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 59 1 constant bumps, vibrations, sometimes jolts that go 2 along with switching cars and making couplings. 3 Q Is it fair to say that your disagreement 4 with the description of sitting is that it may be not 5 fully described with the amount of pounding that's 6 involved in sitting in the chair? 7 A Sitting denotes something that's sedentary, 8 and that's not necessarily my opinion of sitting on a 9 iocomotive. 10 Q Staying on page six. Did you have a 11 disagreement with where it says, towards the bottom of 12 the page, something about running and gymnastic feats? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q What is your disagreement there? is A I am not a gymnast. Only time you see me 16 run out there, if there is an extreme emergency to 1'7 myself or someone else. Tlaat very rarely, if ever, 18 occurs. 19 Q Going over to page ten, up at the top of 20 the page. Second item is hurnidity. Do you have a 21 disagreement with what it says there about humidity? -1'2 A Exposure to humidity is not present on the 23 lob. That is absolutely false. 24 Q How about vibration, three items down DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 60 1 there. Do you disagree with what is listed there as 2 far as the vibration job requirements? 3 A The conciusion, exposure to vibration is 4 present on the job, it is not important. I don't agree 5 with that. 6 Q What aspect of it don't you agree with? '7 A There is constant -- on line or road there 8 is constant side to side motion of the engine at 9 certain locations, rough rail. You can bounce up and 10 down in the seat. And as I stated before in the yard, 11 slack action, slack of the cars moving away from the 12 locomotive, slack of the cars being compressed into the 13 locomotive, does cause shock vibration, whatever you 14 want to cali it. is Q Other than those items that we just went 16 through as things that you disagree with about those 17 documents, do you otherwise agree these documents are a 18 fairly accurate depiction of the job duties of 19 locomotive engineer? 20 A Basically, yes, they are. 11 Q And is your only other concern is that 22 perhaps these are not descriptive enough or not 23 exhaustive in terrns of ail of the physically demanding '@4 activities involved in being a locomotive engineer? DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 61 1 A Yes. It would be very difficult -- 2 somebody took a lot of time to put these two documents 3 together. It would be very difficult to put in writing 4 everything and anything physically that a locomotive 5 engineer does. 6 Q Let's talk about the kind of cards. Is '7 there any difference in the way you-all play cards now 8 since the accident as to how you-all played cards 9 before the accident? 10 A We just don't play that often, that's for 11 sure, and we certainly don't piay all night like we 12 used to. 13 Q Is there a reason for that, that you don't 14 play all night? is MR. HOLLAND: I object to him, having him 16 testify about his speculation. 17 MR. COOPER: T don't think it is 18 speculation. Somebody probabiy told him. 19 20 BY MR. HOLLAND: @l I Q Why is it that you guys can't play all 22 night? '43 A Basicaily I don't think Boyce is able to. -@14 Q Why haven't you invited him out to play DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 62 1 golf since the accident? 2 A I don't think he can, and I am not going to 3 bother him. 4 Q Now, my notes reflect that when opposing 5 counsel asked you exactly how much force was involved 6 in throwing a switch, you honestly indicated you don't 7 know the exact poundage. Are you able to estimate it? 8 Are you able to estimate for it, that it involves more 9 or less than 20 pounds of force being applied? 10 A Like I said, honestly I don't know how many 11 pounds of force it takes to hand throw a switch or to 12 apply or release a hand brake. They can be 13 considerable. 14 Q Can you describe in words, if not in 15 number, how much force is involved in each of those 16 tasks? 17 A How much work? 18 Q How much force? In other words, describe 19 for me physically how strenuous or not strenuous such a no task is it? 21 A It takes considerable amount of strength, '-2 a lot of your body strength to the point you are not @@3 stressing yourself to certainly apply hand brakes. 24 They've got to be applied tight, so they are DAVIS REPORTING, INC. 7 63 1 And throwing switches that can, you can 2 erabie leg strength, which is the proper way 3 to throw a switch. One thing about squatting. May be 4 10, 15, 20, 25 pounds -- I don't really know -- actual 5 pounds. 6 Q I am not talking about pounds. Would you 7 describe those two activities as slight, moderate or 8 serious amounts of exertion for you the worker? 9 A They can be either. They can be slight. 10 Properly aligned, well oiled switches should be 11 relatively easy to throw, and use moderate amount of 12 energy on a switch. Anytliing beyond that, you just 13 don't throw it. 14 Q How about with respect to the hand brakesd 15 A Hand brakes, moderate to -- moderate to use 16 physical exertion to apply brakes, ratchet and wheel 17 type. 18 MR. COOPER: I think that's all I have got 19 for you. Any other questions? 20 MR. HOLLAND: No, I don't have anything 21 else. 22 You have the right to read and sign your 23 deposition, or you can agree to waive. 24 THE DEPONENT: Waive it. DAVIS REPORTING, INC. Glaser - Cross - Cooper 64 MR. COOPER: If you were my client, I would 2 tell you to waive it. 3 4 AND FURTHER THIS DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 5 (Reading and signature waived.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 is 16 1'7 18 19 20 2 2 2 3 2 4 DAVIS REPORTING, INC. 65 I COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGTNIA AT LARGE, to wit: 2 3 I, Julie W. Davis, Notary Public in and for 4 the Commonwealth of Virginia at large, and whose 5 co=ission expires July 31, 1997, do certify that the 6 aforementioned appeared before me, was sworn by me, and 7 was thereupon examined by counsel; and that the 8 foregoing is a true, correct and full transcript of the 9 testimony adduced. 10 I further certify that I am neither related 11 to nor associated with any counsel or party to this 12 proceeding, nor otherwise interested in the event 13 thereof. 14 Given under my hand at Richmond, Virginia, 15 the 25th day of July, 1997. 16 17 18 19 20 Julie W. Davis - Notary Public 21 Commonweaith of Virginia at Large 2 2 23 4 DAVIS REPORTING, INC.